Curse

Lonk · Mar 28, 2006, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Making this topic as a sort of home to discuss the possible combinations of both new and old skills to create a better Minion Master (or honestly a better necro even). I'll kindly ask that noone flame necros, namely MM's as being overpowered and such now, this is more of a brainstorming topic to help the community of necromancer lovers.

I'll start with this, while playing around with the Flesh Golem a thought occurred that needs testing that I could not do during the event for lack of proper skills, and probably won't lead to anything good, but let's say you run a minion master and carry Verata's Aura/Gaze with you.

Would it be possible to steal someone else's Golem in addition to your own? Technically you are not "creating" a 2nd golem so its iffy if the game would allow this.

Now another thought, this one about Vampric Horrors, according to thier description, the amount they heal you for is directly tied to thier physical damage.

So lets assume you brought along a curse necro, or ran some curses yourself. Perhaps Barbs and Weaken Armor could be used to increase how much you are healed for, or you could even throw in Order of Pain.

Lastly, Verata's Aura always seemed a rather useless skill to me before, too situational, but in Factions with the 12 on 12 battles, if necromancers are widely used, perhaps it will come into play and help turn the tides of a few battles.

Any additions or thoughts on any of this is more than welcome, and it's quite nice that lately Necros are finally getting a little respect for thier ability to assist in both pve and pvp.

MelechRic · Mar 28, 2006, 10:40 PM // 22:40

During factions I had at least two Golems under my control in one battle using Verata's Aura. The problem with Aura is that it ends abrutply and you will find out quickly that it's over when you're face down in the dirt. It's also got a fairly small area of affect so you need to be in firing range of the enemy minions to use it.

Upside:

Stealing other people's golems and minions and seeing them flee or hearing the WTF?!?!? on the shout channel.
Prudent use can lead to victory.

Downside:
If you forget that it's expired then you're in for a world of hurt.
Smart MM's now pack this too.
When it's over any minions bound to you are lost.
33% is a painful sacrifice and you need to be aware of your hp before trying.

Carinae · Mar 28, 2006, 10:41 PM // 22:41

I strongly suspect Verata's Aura is going to get hit with the nerf bat, really hard. The spell is a good anti-MM spell, but it's absurdly overpowered....and uncounterable.... and uninterruptable.

It should not be possible for someone with 0 Death (or even low Death) to steal ALL (or even most) of the minions from a 16/17 Death Necro.

I would expect to see something along these lines:

Verata's Aura
Sacrifice 33% of maximum health. 0-48% of all hostile animated undead in the area become bound to you. Verata's Aura ends after 120-264 seconds. When Verata's Aura ends, you lose your bond with any undead bound to you.

This change would mean that even powerful MM's can only take half of each others minions per use.

MelechRic · Mar 28, 2006, 10:55 PM // 22:55

There is a price:

When Verata's Aura ends, you lose your bond with any undead bound to you.

However, it's unclear as to if this is enough of a penalty. The area of effect is pretty small. I found I needed to be pretty close to the minons to get them to align with me.

The best thing to do was gank the MM. I brought my blood spiker on to do that and started calling the MM out to my teammates. It's funny to see the MM go down and then see most of his/her team start to drop too. Of course it's best to watch this at a distance.

Carinae · Mar 28, 2006, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Yea, but VA lasts a really long time, even at 0. It also depends on what's the ACTUAL intended use for VA.

Is it an Anti-MM spell, or a Team-Minion-Recovery Spell?

Lonk · Mar 28, 2006, 11:13 PM // 23:13

I always suspected it was meant more as a minion recovery spell, but yeah that'd be nasty to run into, see a curse necro carrying it just to mess you and your minion army up.

I believe off the top of my head, VA last about 120 sec at 0 death magic, two minutes is quite a while for 0 DM.

MelechRic · Mar 28, 2006, 11:45 PM // 23:45

But with < 5 death it fails 50% of the time. I accidentally misread the spec and ran it w/ 4 in death. I found out that it's really a pain when you sac 33% of your hp and the stupid thing fails.

Carinae · Mar 29, 2006, 12:04 AM // 00:04

"In the Area" is the largest circle at the training grounds, so it has a good range. You do have to get reasonable close, but a suicide character could run up, take them and die....with no counter possible.

If it had a slow 3 second cast, it would be OK.
If there was a preventative spell to stop it from working, it would be OK.

If it's a minion recovery spell it should only work on UNBOUND minions.

Fungus Amongus · Mar 29, 2006, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonk

I always suspected it was meant more as a minion recovery spell, but yeah that'd be nasty to run into, see a curse necro carrying it just to mess you and your minion army up.

I tried that in 12v12. I ran a Curse necro with 5 in Death (0 in Death first time until I realized the chance of failure <5) to try to gimp the other team's MM's (passive corpse denial, if you will). It's tough to pull off because the range of VA is relatively small. If it affected a larger range, VA would be way overpowered. The few times it did work was kind of funny though because I was also packing Taste of Death.

In 12v12 I was only at about 5 or 6 Soul Reaping, which was quite enough most of the time during the chaos. But with 8-10 in SR you could basically steal other necro's energy. They spend 25 energy per Fiend, only so you can spend 15 to steal it. When in range of 10 or more? Whoa. 15 to steal, then 5 more to pop each for health and 3-5 net energy gain each with ToD = cheap energy regen.

Obviuosly it's impractical to have a goal of rendering one opponent useless, but the extra energy powers up your other 6 skill slots.

This is certainly a flawed concept as far as I am concerned at this point, however, the different approach this provided for massive PvP battles is still worth thinking about.

kaldak · Mar 29, 2006, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Reading this post i just got an idea. 2 necros work together. One makes a Flesh Golem, then suicides. Other necro uses Verata's Gaze to grab it, then either he or a team monk rezzes the downed necro with Vengeance. First necro makes a new Flesh Golem then either dies or waits for Vengeance to end. Again the second necro grabs the loose golem with VG. Keep doing this and you could quickly amass an army of Flesh Golems. Necro #2 should probably also have Verata's Aura along in case the enemy tries to steal them, and VS for logevity.

Carinae · Mar 29, 2006, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Vengeance has a 60 second recharge (for no apparent reason at all)

Fungus Amongus · Mar 29, 2006, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Vengeance has a 60 second recharge (for no apparent reason at all)

Probably because it brings back a target ally at full health and energy without the chance of incurring additional DP. It's sort of a temporary solution. Zero recharge on this skill I beleive would give too much opportunity for multiple fallen allies to a.) keep dishing out damage or b.) return to a safer location.

kaldak · Mar 29, 2006, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Vengeance has a 60 second recharge (for no apparent reason at all)

good point. odd...i remember people doing a similar trick with minion factory builds...perhaps using another skill to cut down on its recharge?

suiraCLAW · Mar 29, 2006, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Verata's aura is certainly overpowerd.

A situation I encountered: someone (that was me) runs in a whole minion army and casts verata's aura, he got killed 2 secs after the cast. (before I could cast dark bond...)

anyway: the minions smashed 5 foe's and 2 allies + each other.

bobrath · Mar 29, 2006, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Dunno that V Aura is overpowered... Its situational at best and you will lose all your minions when it expires (forcing a recast).

I can envision its power tho in 12v12 when the MMs were becoming the uber leet build. You'd see a mass of dots heading your way, pause, pause, pause. See those dots convert to your color and see your faction score go up. Course then I'd have to find a way to make those minions expire otherwise I'd become a TKer of sorts! V Aura will be recharged.

I just see MMs in the future carrying V Aura to be able to steal their army back.

Yukito Kunisaki · Mar 29, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

I'd use Verata's Aura, Death Nova them all, right after I use Signet of Creation on my stolen army...

Run them into the enemy's territory [aka in their faces and up their pants...]

Then let the ~30s.ish of doom count down my victory!

No AoE enchantment removal means gg...

MelechRic · Mar 29, 2006, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

I'd use Verata's Aura, Death Nova them all, right after I use Signet of Creation on my stolen army...

Run them into the enemy's territory [aka in their faces and up their pants...]

Then let the ~30s.ish of doom count down my victory!

No AoE enchantment removal means gg...

You're going to have a hard time putting Death Nova on a lot of minions because the little buggers move about so much. Also, if an enemy Necro gets off a Well of Profane then the minion's Nova and Signet of Creation enchant is stripped I think. It's a lot like the desert when you queen farm. Even w/ Verata's Sacrifice the minions don't last long because Sac gets stripped when they fight in WoP.

Carinae · Mar 29, 2006, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fungus Amongus

Probably because it brings back a target ally at full health and energy without the chance of incurring additional DP. It's sort of a temporary solution. Zero recharge on this skill I beleive would give too much opportunity for multiple fallen allies to a.) keep dishing out damage or b.) return to a safer location.

I don't think there is a real reason to have a long recharge.

It's a 10 energy spell that needs to be recast every 30 seconds. You are going to hit a limit real fast on how many people you can keep Vengeanced, and even then you are going to be doing nothing else but playing puppetmaster.

And of course, if someone has their whole team Vengeanced, well, the puppetmaster becomes a sweet target.

Even a 15-30 second recharge would be great.

As far as VA's goes.... This spell will be just like Nature's Renewal was for enchantments/hexes. It's a build killer. People were just experimenting with it during the FPE, wait until real builds emerge.

You do realize virtually any build could walk right upto a MM and wipe them with no defense possible? Tanks, Runners, 55 builds, Shadow stepping Assasains, NT/CC Necros, suiciders....wait till people get familiar with the spell and methods of delivery.

It can't be interrupted.
It can't be prevented/blocked.
It takes ALL minions "In The Area"

Your only options are
1) kill anyone remotely close with N/ or /N in less than .75 seconds
2) play 'hot potato' with VA casting. Whoever uses it last wins!

If there was an actual defense to this spell, it would be fine. Like maybe an Elite Soul Reaping spell that blocks any minions steals, but prevents you raising new minions while maintained.

MelechRic · Mar 29, 2006, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Getting close is the key. When an enemy MM has 30+ minions up and you try to run in and steal them it's tough. The AoE on VA is also small. I think that strategically it means you just carry VA and steal the right back. It's a big hit with 33% of your hp going too.

I played with VA a bit during the FPE, but I've found that the most effective thing you can do is kill the MM. It's like a chain reaction train wreck when you get him/her to go down.

Carinae · Mar 29, 2006, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Necrotic Traversal/Consume Corpse followed by VA.

Insta-wipe. (assuming 12v12 maps)

The NT/CC necro will actually be leaping into a pile of bodies, which incidentally will be where the minions are.

This will hit all the Minions/Horrors and any fresh Fiends recently raised.